Another thing everyone needs to remember is that the medical term for a miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion, and they will try to criminalize that, too.
As many as half of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion. Oftentimes the pregnant person does not know they have been pregnant.
I have been pregnant 13 times that i know of, and have required a D&C for a couple of them so I didn’t go septic and die. (Celiac disease causes spontaneous abortion in many people, and we didn’t know i had it, only that I miscarried a lot). I have had one live birth. One. The other 12, they’d like to make crimes.
So. You know. Been thinking about that a lot today.
Listen I get the fear but like. There is not a single pro-life person who wants to criminalize miscarriage. I mean maybe there’s the insane .002% who want to idk but. The vast VAST majority of us are concerned about supporting both the mother and the child
Go fuck yourself. You and every goddamn pro life piece of shit. You don’t care about the mother and child, because if you gave a shit about the mother you wouldn’t force her to carry a child she didn’t want. If you gave a shit about the child, you’d support programs to help the mother raise that child, rather than voting for republicans who are a god damn death cult at this point.
But instead you pro-life ghouls just want babies to be born and don’t really give a rat’s ass what happens afterwards.
Who hurt u
Pretty clearly the answer is “forced birthers.”
@starry-stitch I don’t know your position and I’m going to assume you’re well meaning at heart, so here’s the thing:
There are women in jail for miscarrying RIGHT NOW in the US. It is already happening. Brittney Poolaw was sentenced to 4 years in prison for manslaughter in Oklahoma for taking a drug that may increase the risk of miscarriage (though autopsy showed it didn’t actually cause her miscarriage).
If someone gets pregnant and miscarries, there is a non-zero chance they’ll be arrested and convicted of man-slaughter or worse. That chance should be 0%, and can only be 0% if abortion is legal and isn’t as heavily restricted as it is in many states.
There’s also ectopic pregnancies. An Ectopic pregnancy is when the embryo implants somewhere other than the uterus, usually the fallopian tubes. There, the embryo will grow and grow causing pain and bleeding until the tube bursts and the woman dies. You cannot make an ectopic pregnancy into a viable pregnancy. Full Stop.
Sometimes when abortion is prohibited, a salpingectomy, which is the removal of the fallopian tubes, is allowed once the ectopic pregnancy has reached the point where death of the woman is imminent. Of course, this has a higher risk of complications and death than just getting an abortion the moment the ectopic pregnancy is detected.
When you make abortion illegal, there will be a debate on whether miscarriages are prosecuted in any circumstance, what evidence is required to differentiate whether someone had an illegal abortion or a miscarriage, and whether there will be exceptions for certain circumstances like ectopic pregnancies.
This debate is very dangerous for the rights of women and the rights of anyone who is or can get pregnant. Miscarriages should have 0% risk of prosecution, and the state shouldn’t be able to prevent abortions when the pregnant person could die if they don’t get it. The moment that debate happens in the legislatures those 2 things cannot be guaranteed.
El Salavador, for example, makes zero exceptions, life threatening or not.
The only way to prevent that debate from happening is if abortion is allowed.
And you may think they will never actually make it possible for a miscarriage to be prosecuted despite the fact it already happened. However, some politicians may have incentives to do that very thing. You see, in some states, felons lose their right to vote. In those states, if you make a thing a felony, then you can decrease the amount of people who do that thing and can still vote. If a politician from such a state does poorly with women voters, they may decide that they should prosecute miscarriages so they can stay in office. Such a politician won’t have women’s rights or supporting mothers on their priorities because otherwise they wouldn’t choose to do that.
I personally find any strategy that a state can use to take away voting rights from demographics it doesn’t like horrifying and an affront to democracy whether I’m part of those demographics or not.
Not allowing abortion also sets a dangerous precedent. The right to bodily autonomy is guaranteed as an extension to the 9th Amendment’s right to privacy. You have complete say over your own organs and they cannot be donated unless you gave permission even in death, and you aren’t required to donate blood even if it would save a life. Maybe you wouldn’t say no to donating a kidney if you were a match for someone who needed one, but the state cannot jail you for saying no, nor can it mandate kidney donations or any other organ donations. The “should you kill one person if their organs will save 5 moral dilemma” is also a debate that shouldn’t be had in legislatures.
Making abortion illegal means that an exception is made for the uterus. Court decisions are based on precedent, so if an exception to the right to bodily autonomy is made for the uterus, that is fuel for future arguments to add more exceptions to bodily autonomy.
If complications or health problems come up that prevent a pregnancy from carrying to term safely, abortions are an important part of making sure women (and trans men) can try for a child safely without putting their lives on the line. Cause sometimes shit happens and painful decisions must be made.
People will die that could’ve been saved and innocents will be jailed if this draft is made reality. That’s not an exaggeration. It’s just the truth.
Thanks for being respectful @tachvintlogic! Just to clarify my position, I am very much pro-life and I absolutely wholeheartedly believe that anyone being sentenced to any legal punishment at all for a miscarriage is horrific. I agree with you and will fight alongside you on that. My point is not that no one is in jail from miscarriage, but that the majority of pro-lifers do not condone punishment for miscarriage.
Ectopic pregnancy procedures are never abortions. Abortion is an intentional attack on a living child. Any situation in which the mother’s life is in danger is a tragedy and an exception is made in the draft for these cases. Miscarriage management is also not an abortion (legally or morally). These are two separate issues (both of which must be addressed).
The act of abortion is very different from the act of not donating organs. It is the dismemberment of an innocent living human being via extremely violent means. There is no nonviolent way to perform an abortion. The right to life is listed as the first of the principle rights of an American in our founding documents: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The right to privacy does not override this right, nor should it be used to do so. An exception is not made for the uterus, but killing of the innocent is prohibited no matter where it occurs. Ultimately, you cannot violently murder someone and claim bodily autonomy as your defense.
Again, thank you for your respect and I appreciate your reply.
Let’s say that I concede the idea that a blastocyst is morally, philosophically, and legally equivalent to a fully-formed human being. I absolutely do not, and in fact it is firmly against my religion (Judaism) to treat a fetus as morally equivalent to a born human being, and explicitly commanded to prioritize the physical and mental well-being of the gestational parent, an actual human being, above the existence of a potential human being.
But let’s just say that I do concede that idea, and we are talking about two fully-formed human beings who are legally and morally equivalent to one another, and one of them is helpless and will not survive without their access to, and ability to change and harm, the other person’s body.
Even if I concede that, you’re still wrong.
The act of abortion is very different from the act of not donating organs.
It actually is not different at all. Both of them rest on the question of whether or not you have the right to privacy and the integrity of your own body. The only question at hand here is this:
Do you have the right to the integrity of your own body and the right to decide what happens to it? Do you believe that someone else should be able to use your body to stay alive no matter what you think of that? Do you think that someone has the right to damage your body, to change your body forever, to disable you, or to kill you, in order for them to stay alive? Do you think that the right of someone else to use your body to stay alive whether or not it harms you should be inscribed in law?
If you do not think that someone else should be able to use your body to stay alive no matter what you think about that prospect, congratulations! You don’t believe in forced birth, and you believe that gestational parents are not required to permit another human being to utilize their body to stay alive. If you do think that, then you support forced organ donation. There is not a meaningful legal or moral distinction between those two things.
Ultimately, you cannot violently murder someone and claim bodily autonomy as your defense.
Actually, you absolutely can do that, legally, in many many circumstances. Cops do it all the time, after all. “Stand your ground” laws provide for exactly what you are saying. Self-defense exists as a legal concept for exactly this reason: you may cause physical violence on a person in order to keep yourself whole. You are allowed to prioritize your own life in circumstances when not doing so would cause you harm.
Whether or not you agree with how police utilize (and very documentedly abuse) the right to do violence against others in the name of preserving their own lives or well-being, the fact remains that they absolutely have the ability to do so.
Invoking the concept of “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” as written in a non-foundational document* written by a human being who not only owned other human beings but repeatedly raped one of those human beings over many years beginning when she was a teenager does not really have the moral punch that you seem to think it does, by the way. You might want to reconsider that one while you’re reconsidering whether you think someone has the right to use your body to stay alive regardless of what you think about that prospect.
It’s an either/or: either you think a living person with a uterus has at least as many rights to privacy and bodily integrity as a corpse, or you don’t. Period. End of story.
*The Declaration of Independence is not legally binding in any way - those words don’t appear in the Constitution - and its words have only symbolic weight, zero legal weight at all.
Lastly, this constant “nuh uh, pro-lifers don’t think that way” is an outright insult to the intelligence and perception of those of us who grew up in conservative/Evangelical areas, or who have pro-life family and coworkers. I grew up surrounded by Southern Baptists who would absolutely say “the wages of sin are death” in direct response to the idea that abortion was permissible to save the life of the mother, and dealing with church members and neighbors who told me to my face that they believed I was culpable for my miscarriages and that I had committed a crime by not successfully carrying my pregnancies to team. It is a VERY insulting thing: I’m not insulated from people with these attitudes. I grew up around them. Lots of them.
And by the way, the little comments about “respect and civility” are something called “tone policing.” Knock it off.
It’s also simply not true, @starry-stitch , that the treatment for an ectopic pregnancy isn’t abortion. It is. If you’re going to make the claim that an embryo is a living person, then it’s a living person no matter where it implants. Ending an ectopic pregnancy ends the “life” of that embryo just as surely as ending any other pregnancy does. The treatment, the ONLY treatment, for an ectopic pregnancy is abortion. Putting it in a different category, claiming it’s not “really” abortion, is magical thinking. (It’s also the No True Scotsman fallacy in action.) Medically - and, more to the point, legally - it absolutely is an abortion.
In thinking that you can only outlaw what you consider the “bad” sorts of abortion, and of course you’ll stand and fight with us against anyone taking those laws too far, you’re falling prey to what Alexandra Erin rather brilliantly deemed “The Shirley Exception.” You think the lawmakers will be reasonable. They will not be. We know this. We know it because we’ve already seen what happens. You will not be able to control them or pull them back. If abortion is outlawed, people absolutely, 100% WILL die of ectopic pregnancies and other conditions that could have been prevented by an abortion. People WILL go to prison, their lives ruined and their families destroyed, because of miscarriages. Desperate people WILL turn to illegal abortions, and many of them will die painfully. And you may be a perfectly nice person and you may not WANT these things to happen, but if you fight for abortion to be outlawed, you are actively choosing those deaths, that pain. It will be a direct consequence of the laws you are choosing to support.
Maybe you can live with that, I don’t know. Maybe you can look at, for instance, an 11-year-old child who is pregnant due to rape, and say “yes, forcing this child to carry a pregnancy to term, forcing her to go through thst pain and trauma, risking her health, taking the chance that she dies in childbirth, is worth it if we can stop all abortions.” Maybe that’s a trade-off that sounds fair to you, I don’t know. That’s between you and your soul. But what you CAN’T do, what you absolutely WILL NOT do, is lie to yourself and lie to us and pretend that that’s not the choice you’re making. Don’t you dare try to pretend you’re doing anything but writing off that child and who knows how many others as “acceptable losses” in the pursuit of your goal.
And if you can’t live with that, if that price is too high, if you couldn’t condemn your child or sibling or spouse or best friend to die like that, then you can’t support anti-choice policies. Because that IS what those policies will do.
Lobby for better sex ed and universal health care and higher minimum wage. Volunteer at a shelter for abuse victims or start a nonprofit to help low-income families. If you truly believe abortion is a moral wrong, seek to understand WHY people get abortions and work to make this world better so that fewer people feel the need to. But if you’re fighting to criminalize abortion, you are going to kill people. Hiding from that, pretending it’s not true, believing in your heart that of course they won’t really do that, of course they’ll make exceptions when they’re deserved, doesn’t change that. They won’t. They never have. They never do. Accept that fact, stop lying to yourself with wishful thinking, and decide just how many lives you’re willing to sacrifice.